Posts by Disillusioned JW

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Well though I intended to not make another post about Rutherford's writings in this topic thread, I eventually couldn't resist making this post, regarding what is in Rutherford's last book, the one called Children. Notice what one of the fictional characters say in the last few paragraphs of the last chapter of the book. The following is a quote from those paragraphs, as transcribed at http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/children/children12.html .

'Armageddon is surely near, and during that time the Lord will clean off the earth everything that offends and is disagreeable. Then, by His grace, we shall begin our life with a greater vision and prolonged joy. Now we see by faith the great THEOCRACY, and we are wholly and unreservedly committed to that righteous government. From now on we shall have our heart devotion fixed on THE THEOCRACY, knowing that soon we shall journey for ever together in the earth. Our hope is that within a few years our marriage may be consummated and, by the Lord's grace, we shall have sweet children that will be an honor to the Lord. We can well defer our marriage until lasting peace comes to the earth. Now we must add nothing to our burdens, but be free and equipped to serve the Lord. When THE THEOCRACY is in full sway it will not be burdensome to have a family. Then we may often walk through these broad fields, amidst the beautiful forests and environments, and will walk with our beloved children by our side and tell them all we have learned from the Lord,

367

and together we shall all be quick to obey our Leader and our King, Christ Jesus."

"I recall, John dear, that your father will be asking you now for your decision as to the future and what you shall do."

"Eunice, my decision is made. I shall shun politics, religion, and commerce, and I shall avoid the cities and the enticements thereof. We are both committed for ever to THE THEOCRACY. Our present duty is plain. We must now be witnesses to the name of Jehovah and to his kingdom. Our place of residence we can continue with our parents as long as it is God's will to have it so, and we shall engage in the service of the Lord by carrying his message of his name and kingdom to others who are hungering for righteousness. We shall, by God's grace, be forever the children of the great King, and our children shall be forever with us, subjects of the Kingdom. We have found refuge in Christ, and we shall abide here until the blessed time when we may have part in fulfilling the divine mandate. We shall not see each other very often for a time, but we can have like thoughts every day of the glorious prospect that is set before us. I suggest that our first thought on awakening each morning be expressed by repeating these words of the psalmist: 'Bless the Lord, 0 my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the Lord, O

368

my soul, and forget not all his benefits.' — Psalm 103:1,2."

To this young man and young woman all the environments now appeared more beautiful. The birds in the trees seemed to be singing the praises of Jehovah and His King. So, hand in hand, they joined their voices with them in song and gave thanks to God for His manifold blessings bestowed upon them.'

Notice that Rutherford, through the fictional characters of his book, a book intended for JW children, very strongly encouraged young JWs to not get married to after lasting peace is obtained after the end of Armageddon! That book is copyright 1941! Imagine how many JW lives were adversely effected by that book. The WT's current adverse attitude towards secular higher education can thus be traced to that book by Rutherford, if not also even further back into the history of the WT.

An ex-JW is reported as saying the following (as stated at https://tonyortega.org/2019/04/09/an-ex-jehovahs-witness-explains-why-the-bottlegate-video-is-so-crucial/ in an article from the year 2019) in regards to this policy (including as proclaimed by Tony Morris).

'For those of you that don’t know about Jehovah’s Witnesses, Tony Morris, as one of the Governing Body members (leaders of the religion) has gained celebrity status due to the JW Broadcasting, their TV network on JW org, where Jehovah’s Witnesses can get constant propaganda piped into the house 24/7.

Anyway, Tony is one of the best GB members at employing very effective guilt tactics to keep the cult members in line. He is on tape in Trinidad telling JWs that if they are not in the field ministry every single week, their hands are dirty with blood and therefore they are bloodguilty and WILL die at Armageddon (he should know, apparently, because I guess it will be him and not Jesus who will be judging people at Armageddon).

...

This is the same Tony who rails against parents to allow their kids to go to college (JWs are **heavily** discouraged from obtaining a higher education). This is shown in one of his JW Broadcasting videos where he blames parents for their children leaving the organization because they allowed them to have a college education.

This is the same organization that teaches it’s members from infancy to take menial jobs (if they have to have a job at all) that will barely support them so that they can spend most of their time in the field ministry (pounding on doors) and who are constantly glorifying people who quit their jobs if they interfere with meetings, Bible study time, Family Worship, field ministry, or assemblies and conventions. They also glorify those who live in poverty in order to preach full-time. We hear about these JWs over and over at meetings and conventions and assemblies and in their literature. You can ask any JW, passed or present, and they will confirm this.

...

This is the same organization that produces HIGHLY propagandized cartoons for JW children in which one of the cartoons guilts little children to put their ice cream money into the contribution boxes at the Kingdom Halls. Let that sink in. The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses uses cartoons to guilt children into putting their allowances into the contribution boxes at their places of worship. The Kaleb and Sophia cartoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pL-LnqNyw

This cult expertly uses fear and guilt to manipulate and micromanage their members into doing insane things that are not for their benefit and more importantly, are highly detrimental to their children.'

It has been many years since I stopped attending JW meetings. When I had stopped attending meetings (other than memorial meetings prior to the year 2007 or so) the religion was not nearly as bad as described in the above article. If the ex-JW quoted in the above article is correct in her claims then in many ways the religion is now horrible and embracing part of the lousy message I quoted above from the Children book. Yikes!

179

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

by The Quiet One in

regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

that would clearly have been a mistake.

Disillusioned JW

Isn't Russell directing the WT from heaven, as stated in one of the old WT publications from the early part of the Rutherford era? Ha ha.

9

Is the Watchtower Organization Playing a Practical Joke on JWs?

by Disillusioned JW in

by a number of its teachings, rules, and practices is the wt organization playing a practical joke on jws?.

Disillusioned JW

By a number of its teachings, rules, and practices is the WT organization playing a practical joke on JWs?

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

On https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5172254521425920/remembering-rutherford?page=4 I made a post which said, in part, "I think that Rutherford's writing theological/religious books and getting them published is a form of religious ministry as well as him giving public talks (including at conventions), even though those activities are not in the form of door-to-door ministry." I later discovered, prior to July 6, 2021, that Rutherford said in his Religion book, that others doing such do not substitute for the door-door preaching work.

Page 214 of the book says the following (as transcribed from http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/religion/religion7.html ). 'Some amongst the consecrated were inclined to think that because of their position and standing in the congregation they should not engage in the house-to-house witness work, but that their part was chiefly to make speeches and to serve at meetings. But note the instruction of the Lord through his prophet concerning such: "Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, 0 Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?" — Joel 2:17.'

Note that on page 214 of the Religion book Rutherford criticizes those who claim they need not go out door-door preaching instead of giving speeches serving at meetings. Note also what he said on the topic in paragraphs subsequent to the one I quoted from. As a result, my defense of Rutherford in this particular matter is negated by Rutherford's own words in his book called Religion. Wow! I think those words of Rutherford were also intended to criticize Russell - who gave speeches but who probably did not (at least not significantly) engage in door-door preaching (though his organization hired colporteurs to sell WT books).

There is more evidence that I discovered from Rutherford's books which I could post into this topic thread, but I think I have posted enough to show there are major problems with the WT organization and with Rutherford's writings. I thus now intend to spare myself the time and effort of typing such additional examples into this topic thread.

28

Which English Translations of the Bible are you Favorites, and Why?

by Disillusioned JW in

which english translations of the bible are you favorites, and why?

my favorites include the (english) revised version bible (of 1881-1885) and its apocrypha (of 1898), the american revised version bible (of 1898, it close to the american standard version), the american standard version bible (of 1901), the new american standard bible - updated edition, the new revised standard version bible with the apocrypha, the complete bible: an american translation (it includes the apocrypha), and the twentieth century new testament.

i also use others beside those.. they are my favorites because i consider them to be highly accurate, and also they are either very literal (but not so literal as to be hard to understand) or they use functional equivalence.

Disillusioned JW

My quote from the NKJV Preface is from an edition of the NKJV copyright 1988 and one copyright 1997, but an edition of the NKJV copyright 1983 doesn't have that unfavorable wording about the Textus Receptus.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, the articles I posted links to mention the human-like features of "Little Foot". One thing which to me is more human-like about it than the Lucy fossil is that the "Little Foot" cranium has a considerably higher vault (above the eye brow ridge) than does the Lucy fossil. Also while it and Lucy both have a human-like pelvis (unlike nonhuman apes), the "Little Foot" fossil has a somewhat divergent toe, than does Lucy's species and modern humans. As a result, the foot of the "Little Foot" fossil is more intermediate (in regards to transitional features) between non-human apes and modern humans, than are the fossils of Lucy's species.

In mentioning the Lucy fossil you mention ape-like features (except that regarding the first three, I don't recall ever reading about such features of Lucy from a scientific book or scientific article about evolution) while avoiding the mention of human-like features. For examples, you did not mention the following: the human-like proportions of the teeth (including the canines); an aspect about the skull Lucy's species which shows it was mounted much more vertically on the spinal column than in apes [namely, the foramen magnum and occipital condyles were anteriorly sited, as in humans, though perhaps at an angle intermediate to that of apes and of humans]; the human-like shape of the pelvis (well you mentioned the pelvis, but in an incorrect way); the human-like relative length of the toes of the feet, the human-like alignment of the big toe relative to the other toes, and the human-like shape of the ends of the leg bones.

It is largely the mosaic of ape and human features which provide both the "Little Foot" fossil and the Lucy fossil (along with fossils of other members of Lucy's species) with part of the evidence of evolution of humans from nonhuman apes.

Furthermore, the skull you show displayed to the right of a reconstruction of Lucy is not the fossil (nor a cast) of Lucy's skull (though perhaps it is a fossil of some member of Lucy's species, or perhaps a different reconstruction than I am familiar with). The fossil remains of Lucy's skull were not anywhere near that complete as that of the skull image you provided. Furthermore, a composite skull made of multiple members of her species, which I saw in books, looks more human in shape than the skull you show.

Regarding the foramen magnum and occipital condyles being anteriorly sited in Lucy's species and in other Australopithecus species, like in humans (though I think I read it is to a degree which is intermediate between apes and humans), see https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130926111903.htm and https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/fossil-hominid . The latter says "In all fossil hominids the foramen magnum and occipital condyles are positioned further anteriorly than in great apes."

It appears you obtained your list of Lucy's features from one or more young earth creationist sources, perhaps from https://kgov.com/list-of-problems-with-lucy-as-an-upright-walker . That source has both the images you attribute to Lucy and the source says it obtained its information from "the president of Genesis Apologetics". That web page also lists the exact same list of 6 features, in the same order, which you listed in your post.

Your reference of "they just fix it with a power saw until it does" is probably referring to some creationists' claim of what was done to the fossil pelvis of Lucy and a creationist's misrepresented video segment of a NOVA TV show. But their claim is false. Instead it was done to a plaster cast of the fossil pelvis of Lucy. The proof of that is in the full first episode of the NOVA TV show called "In Search of Human Origins". The transcript of it is at https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2106hum1.html . There the transcript says the following.

"DON JOHANSON: ... Superficially, her hip resembled a chimpanzee's, which meant that Lucy couldn't possibly have walked like a modern human. But Lovejoy noticed something odd about the way the bones had been fossilized.

OWEN LOVEJOY: When I put the two parts of the pelvis together that we had, this part of the pelvis has pressed so hard and so completely into this one, that it caused it to be broken into a series of individual pieces, which were then fused together in later fossilization.

DON JOHANSON: After Lucy died, some of her bones lying in the mud must have been crushed or broken, perhaps by animals browsing at the lake shore.

OWEN LOVEJOY: This has caused the two bones in fact to fit together so well that they're in an anatomically impossible position.

DON JOHANSON: The perfect fit was an allusion that made Lucy's hip bones seems to flair out like a chimps. But all was not lost. Lovejoy decided he could restore the pelvis to its natural shape. He didn't want to tamper with the original, so he made a copy in plaster. He cut the damaged pieces out and put them back together the way they were before Lucy died. It was a tricky job, but after taking the kink out of the pelvis, it all fit together perfectly, like a three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle. As a result, the angle of the hip looks nothing like a chimps, but a lot like ours. Anatomically at least, Lucy could stand like a human."

Many of the claims of young earth creationist apologists about the evidence pertaining to evolution are lies and/or misrepresentations - and the WT uses the same tactics as them and has even quoted from their publications. Some creations don't know that a number of claims made by other creationists are lies and/or misrepresentations, but they unfortunately spread them. I discovered so many of the creationists claims are lies and/or misrepresentations, as a result of my research pertaining to evolution versus creationism.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

The more hominid fossils are found the more various transitional features of human evolution are found. We see more steps in the transition when we see fossils of more hominid species. That is what I meant by "... the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger." It is not about one hominid fossil being by itself being better evidence than prior discovered fossils (though some fossils are better than others in showing the evolution), but rather it is the increasing variety of hominid fossils which amounts to the fossil evidence of human evolution getting stronger and stronger. It is like the assembling of more pieces of a jigsaw puzzle results in a better and better picture of the puzzle. It is also like getting higher and higher resolution photographic images results in a picture that is better and better.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

I already provided one specific fossil example in my first post in this topic thread, namely the example of the fossil skeleton named "Little Foot". I consider it an excellent case - even better than the fossil named Lucy. The "Little Foot" skeleton has a mixture of human non-ape features and of ape nonhuman features, and is thus representative of part of the evolution of modern humans from non-human apes. But it is the collective evidence which strongly and conclusively demonstrates evolution, not merely one single example.

You are trying to trap me by your unreasonable insistence that if if evolution is true then one specific example, all by itself, should be able to conclusively demonstrate its entire truth. That is a major fault of young earth creationists and of their literature.

It is really tiresome communicating with people who are so faulty in their reasoning against biological evolution and in other matters.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

In order for the doctor to know how to do the medical procedure the person who became the doctor had to spend numerous years studying numerous medical facts in order to later become a doctor, in order to later diagnose the medical problem, in order to later determine the solution to the medical problem, and in order to later propose a particular medical procedure and to perform the medical procedure. Figuratively speaking, the person who became the doctor had to collect and study multiple puzzle pieces and to piece them together. My analogy of jigsaw puzzles is thus valid.

For example, in order to show the fossil evidence for evolutionary transition of humans from non-human animals, one needs more than one fossil. One needs multiple fossils representing multiple stages of the transition (multiple transitional features). Likewise to show the evidence of evolution from comparative anatomy a person needs to compare more than one common feature between two different species. One needs to compare many common features (as well as different features and somewhat different features) between numerous species, to show that various current species have a common ancestor and to show evidence for biological evolution.

There is also the evidence from genetics of existing species, the evidence from biogeography, the evidence from experiments in mutations of genes, the evidence of atavisms, the evidence of radiometric dating of fossils, and more. There is also the principle of consilience. When these lines of evidence are all considered together, while using the principle of consilience, biological evolution is shown to be true well beyond a reasonable doubt (much like jurors considering multiple pieces of evidence before making a final decision and casting a verdict) - and non-evolutionary special creationism is shown to be extremely unlikely to be true.

Regarding atavisms see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atavism .

Sea Breeze, it sounds like you are the one who needs to do some more research and/or to do much more critical thinking (from a scientific perspective) on the topic.

29

The bus stop analogy

by slimboyfat in

suppose we were naïve observers, given the following data, and asked to draw a conclusion.

we see people gather at a busy bus stop several times a day.

at first one person, then another, and another, until they form a group.

Disillusioned JW

It is true that the arrivals of the buses are based upon bus schedules, but the but schedules are in turn based upon ridership patterns. When ridership levels drop considerably in certain routes, then the bus schedules for those routes change to lower frequency of stops and sometimes the routes are even discontinued. Likewise if some areas start having much higher ridership (or are even anticipated to soon have higher ridership or even to need ridership, such as due to newly created buildings on the route), the bus schedules for those routes change to higher frequency of stops and sometimes even a new route is created.